Westminster Talking the Text
A Lectionary Podcast at Westminster Presbyterian Church
Westminster Talking the Text
Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, August 23rd, 2026 | Romans 12:1-8 | with Donovan Drake, Ashley Higgins, Sarah Bird Kneff, and Stephanie Boaz
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Westminster Talking the Text Podcast for Sunday, August 23rd, 2026 | Romans 12:1-8 | with Donovan Drake, Ashley Higgins, Sarah Bird Kneff, and Stephanie Boaz
Romans 12:1-8
One body in Christ, with gifts that differ
12:1I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, on the basis of God's mercy, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your reasonable act of worship.
12:2Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God--what is good and acceptable and perfect.
12:3For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.
12:4For as in one body we have many members and not all the members have the same function,
12:5so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another.
12:6We have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us: prophecy, in proportion to faith;
12:7ministry, in ministering; the teacher, in teaching;
12:8the encourager, in encouragement; the giver, in sincerity; the leader, in diligence; the compassionate, in cheerfulness.
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Welcome to another Talking the Text. I am Donovan.
SPEAKER_04I'm Ashley. I'm Sarah.
SPEAKER_01And I'm Stephanie. And today we're reading from Romans 12, 1 through 8. But let us begin with a word of prayer. Let's pray. Holy God, we give you thanks and praise for the day that you have made. And we pray again that your spirit be with us as we open up your word. May it uh place it on our hearts and uh help us uh understand so that we might serve you more and better. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
SPEAKER_00Amen. Amen.
SPEAKER_01All right. Romans 12, 1 through 8. And um here it goes. I appeal to you, therefore, brothers and sisters, on the basis of God's mercy to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your reasonable act of worship. Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind, so that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of yourself more highly than you ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we may have many members, and not all the members have the same function, so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually we are members one of another. We have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, prophecy in proportion to faith, ministry in ministering, the teacher in teaching, the encourager in encouragement, the giver in sincerity, the leader in diligence, the compassionate in cheerfulness. It keeps going, right? To what? Lovin'?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I think.
SPEAKER_01Is that it?
SPEAKER_03Concludes a hate.
SPEAKER_01The word of the Lord. The word of the Lord. But I like the end.
SPEAKER_00Keep going. You can.
SPEAKER_01Let love be genuine. Hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good. Love one another with mutual affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not lag in zeal. Be ardent in spirit. Serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope. Be patient in affliction. Persevere in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints. Pursue hospitality to strangers. Bless those who persecute you. Bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice. Weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be arrogant, but associate with the lowly. Do not claim to be wiser than you are. Do not repay anyone evil for evil. But take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. If it is possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. I think that's good. There. The word of the Lord.
SPEAKER_02Thanks be to God.
SPEAKER_01Right? Well, I think that's what this is all about, right? When it talks about presenting your bodies as living sacrifices.
SPEAKER_00I think you're right. I think once you get past verse eight, then you get some this is how to do it. This is how to do it. This is what it looks like.
SPEAKER_04Also, I think when Paul speaks this plainly in Romans, it's like worth continuing on. Like, whoa. It's so good and so easy to understand. I'm like, yes, okay. I can I can I can go with this. I get it.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think it is he's obviously, I think, kind of I mean, chapter one, he talks about all the things that we do. Injustice, evil, covetous, malice, envy, murder, strife, all that. Um which is the the world as it is. And so we're not to be conformed to this age, but be transformed. And again, I think also this is a response to the the problem that Paul has, right? With he just gets done with all trying to figure out Israel and I think hey, in the meantime. Right, right. Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, isn't that first second? I mean, really, it's chapters one through eleven where it's talking about all of the things that have been um like our our fallenness, our brokenness, right? And then oh, and then God's grace. And then that's where you get the therefore in chapter twelve in the verse one. I appeal to you therefore. So whenever you see a therefore kind of looking back at what are what are we there for in?
SPEAKER_01Um of the things I heard last week at my little camp was um uh that up until I think maybe the 70s, that most of our preaching was done in Paul's epistles.
SPEAKER_00Really?
SPEAKER_01And then it switched over to the gospels. So it was this kind of time in which before we were kind of arguing about how are we saved, you know, justification by faith in Christ and all those kind of things. And then we kind of pushed into social gospel stuff. So uh, you know, by far the our weight has been in gospels, and here we are in Romans. And uh but this seems to me a very gosp-y response to justification by faith.
SPEAKER_00I agree. Also, because Paul can get so much into theology, and then we get into doctrines, and doctrines are more like guides than they are encouraging. If we get ourselves stuck in what the doctrines are, it's so heady and we lose the heart.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00And and I think therefore, then can miss the heart of God. And so keeping those together, you know, yes, doctrines are valuable, but they're not the end-all be-all. And I think that Paul would agree with that too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I kind of when I talk to a lot of times when I talk to young couples getting married or thinking about getting married, and find out whether they're involved in the church and if they're not, um, it's like they grew up in the church. But I think we did a disservice in kind of teaching doctrine versus kind of heart stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_04I do think now, though, I wonder, this is my wonder, if we need to be reminded though, that these ways that we live and act, they're really rooted in that doctrine. And though, you know, and especially in a world of social media and everybody has a new idea and you're rewarded for saying something like bold or new or crazy. To be, I wonder if, particularly for my generation and younger, if it's really helpful to be reminded, like, we don't have to make up this stuff. Like, you don't have to do something, like say something new and radical. Like those things that you're practicing, did you know those are found, like that comes from a foundation of our faith? So it's, you know, like how do how we, you know, my mom always says, like, one generation just overcorrects to the the next side of the pendulum. And then the pendulum swings back so far because we're trying to correct, but we end up the momentum, just keeps carrying us. So, how do we always have the two intertwined, the doctrine and the living it out? Like we don't have to make up this stuff. And also the things that you're hearing like out in the world, like the really good things, like we think they are actually rooted in, you know, our faith.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, yeah. Well, and I mean, doing theology, like theology is not just something that some of us learn and then we teach to other people. Theology is an activity. And when we read scripture and think about it at all, we're doing theology. And when we do it together, we can see more sides of what it is we're reading. And I think doctrine at its best, that's what it does, is invites us into generations long of conversations with theologians. Um, and that is valuable as long as we don't rely on the doctrines too much because we also use doctrines to say how we're not like other people. Yeah. You know, like what's the difference between Episcopalian and Presbyterian? I mean, does it matter today? Because, you know, we could why does it matter to you today? Yeah. Right. Rather than, yeah, we're not this, they're that, and we're not. That's that's not a helpful conversation. Yeah. Um but down the road, if you discover that, that's nothing wrong with recognizing the different.
SPEAKER_01But you know, that got me thinking about um there was an article I read the other day about how we are becoming more and more what is it with a spray bottle? What are those things called? Little droplets.
SPEAKER_00Um Aerosolized.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, something like that. Yeah. That we're just becoming little tiny bubbles of people. You know, and it's like you know, when we think denominationally and all that kind of stuff. Even in our denomination, we're just little bubbles of things that we're like-mindedness and all that kind of stuff. And you know, being conformed to this age, it's like we keep narrowing ourselves up to find meaning. Yeah. Because maybe we're being pushed out or feeling pushed out by others, perhaps.
SPEAKER_00Well, and also a big part of what's happening in Romans, the backdrop, is Paul wants those who are Jewish who've come to believe in Jesus as a Messiah, to recognize that the Gentiles who've come to believe in Jesus, that they're all the same rather than the ways that they sort of have built fences between them. And I think that that's really valuable. And what came out of that is this beautiful theology. So how do we be transformed? Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01But do not be can therefore do not be conformed to the state, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Um and the renewing of the mind is so painful.
SPEAKER_04I think it uh keep continuing, so that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect. I would want to argue that the base of this is community. That this cannot be done and it's most faithful, right? We all hear and experience the revelation of God, but then we bring that in community and discern together uh what is good and acceptable and perfect. So even, you know, where he goes on, we have gifts that differ according to the grace given us, even that we hear that not as individuals, therefore, here's what I go and do with that. But the idea of the gifts is that in community we discern together. Again, to like fight off of I think conform to this world today means working hard not to individualize my belief, my politic, my any whatever the fill in the blank. But the at our best and our most faithful, we're doing this work together.
SPEAKER_00That's great. I like that.
SPEAKER_03I think this is the the I don't remember when I teach new member classes, I would use this passage as, you know, thinking about the different gifts people people bring and in community, especially in the church, some people will um prioritize one gift over, you know, well, I can't preach like Donovan, so I don't know if I'm I'm valuable, you know. And it's like, no, we all have such unique gifts. And I would tell the um the new members this this word, and I think it's this one, but the the the word in Greek that Paul is using is like a it's like a medical term. It's taught just like you would say, like a member of your body. And when a body is dismembered, it is a very traumatic thing. Um, and so when you're thinking about being members of one another, members of one body, you know, nowadays it's just like, eh, I didn't like that sermon, or oh, I didn't like that music, I'm gonna go find something else. There's this like fierce individualism where people but but Paul is encouraging them to be connected, you know, like like a body, you know, like you don't want to be dismembered. And so this idea of the different gifts that each member brings and and the and the difficulty that we find in um in in in living in community. There's a a great Craig Barnes talks about the uh he compares being in church as like um a three, uh, what do you call it, a three-legged race where you get your, you know, your foot tied to and uh and it's like you're never gonna go as fast as you could on your own, but you're always gonna have someone's arm around your shoulder. And I'm like, oh, I also read that to new member classes because I'm like, y'all, things are gonna be really slow here. Committees are gonna hold up every decision you want to make, but you're always gonna have someone's arm around your shoulder. And then the hope is that at the end of the race, we're all on the ground laughing because we've tripped so much. But like that image, I think, good of the connectedness. And I think you're right. I think that is countercultural because we are so fiercely individual. Um, and that we just don't even, you know, if we don't like it, we move on.
SPEAKER_04It's also hard. There's such a like, if it doesn't conform with my piece, right? Like my piece, my vibe. Peace, P E A, C E. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then like I deserve to remove myself from that. And that's not to say that there are not like situations. Absolutely, right. And and um terrible relationships that are, you know, we should not be in. But that feels like another overcorrection to say, like, no, it is actually this is hard. And I was listening to uh uh AJ Levine was on NPR yesterday. They did an interview with her, it was really good. But um, she was saying someone told her when she moved to Nashville. Uh she said she she understood that there were differences among denominations. But what was newer to her at some point, maybe not Nashville, was realizing that there were differences, could be differences in individual congregations and the realization that, like, oh, I think that's a mark of a really healthy church. Uh and that's hard. And we'd rather just continue to siphon off ourselves, like you were saying, Donovan. Like, but we do that enough and we're alone. You know, if you're just breaking off from this because that was hard, if you're breaking off from this group because that was hard, you're gonna end up in your home alone. Um so what felt really hard actually turns into just complete isolation. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_03Be like in your home live streaming, and you can never really decide on what service you want. I had a friend who was like during COVID, they were like, Nope, don't like that. Nope, don't agree with that. But they had like such a long list of options, you know. It's just like the whole Sunday morning was spent just channel surfing. Church channel surfing.
SPEAKER_01I mean, to be able to what do you call that? Just kind of eavesdrop in to stuff, versus you know, participating in bot, you know, it's it's like if I'm gonna be with you all, I'm gonna be a different person than I'm gonna be with like my golfing buddies, right? Or go into, you know, in every group, you almost have to I mean, the challenge is trying to figure out who you are all the time, right? In this group and what you should say or not say or be or not be. Um I think that's hard work, and I'm not sure we're learning how to do that anymore.
SPEAKER_02Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03Well, and I think it goes back to the like that first everything is rooted in so therefore on the basis of God's mercy. Like I kind of see that as like the the starting point. And so if we're all aware of that as our identity, as, you know, sinners in need of grace, as people who you know, there there are times where people could see this, especially the list that you read when you went past the point.
SPEAKER_01I went over the line.
SPEAKER_03You're supposed to preach on 9 through 21 next Sunday.
SPEAKER_01Is that right?
SPEAKER_03So the 30th. So you could just stay in your lane. Okay. Um then I preach and I'm like, I don't even know where my text starts. Um that to say, it can be, you know, let love be genuine, hate what is evil, all of that can feel prescriptive. Like, so get justified by your works. But what Paul is saying is everything we're doing, living in community, um, embodying our gifts, living more morally upright lives, is in response to the mercy of God's grace. So it's the sanctification in response to the justification out of gratitude. And I think that's where we get it so wrong so often is like, well, let me earn it by doing all the good things. No, I do the good things because I'm changed, I'm transformed by God's mercy.
SPEAKER_04Right. That's the like it's so rooted in that doctrine. That's right. We don't do this to be like nice moral people. Some some people, but like we don't have to, we're just so deeply tethered, I think. Tethered to well, I I mean, I we I keep saying doctrine, but does but to like who what God has done that therefore informs our life as humans, right?
SPEAKER_03It's a really good practice with um, I did this with some youth years ago where it was like, you know, so why why don't we, you know, they're simplistic, like, why don't we cuss? Oh, I don't know why. Does the Bible tell tell us not to cuss? And why would we do what the Bible says? Why? Like all of this, like, why are we acting differently? And it's not just because of our the rules or cultural Christianity, or that's what my mom and dad will ground me if I don't like trying to get as hard as you can to the heart of it of like this is a response to the mercy of God. And that's a really hard thing, not just for adolescents, but for all of us to go back to.
SPEAKER_04Well, living, I think, especially living in the Bible Belt where there is still there's advantage. You get rewarded for to be a good human on the basis of your faith. We talk a lot about that in the young uh families class, right? Like, why are we raising these kids to be the way they are? Well, is it because they'll get far? Right.
SPEAKER_03Be respectful and polite. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04I I think we fight that a lot in our little pocket of the world.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. It always cause because doctrine is about who God is and our best work, and by our, I mean all of God's people throughout history that have come before us coming to know who God is and finding ways to talk about that.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00And um and I think that's the I mean, even when you talk about the doctrine of the church, it's still based on who God is, first and foremost.
SPEAKER_02That's right.
SPEAKER_01It's such hard work. I mean, it's I wish, you know, do not think of yourself, you know, more highly than you. All right, so you have these gifts, okay, but you know, use sober judgment and it's like, okay. You know, it's like driving with a brake on, right? I mean, how do you do this? How do you how do you not overthink?
SPEAKER_00Right? You've got an answer to that one, Donovan. Right? I'm here to hear it.
SPEAKER_04Or maybe in what places do we need to think less and in what places do we need to think more?
SPEAKER_02Right?
SPEAKER_04Which makes it even more complicated.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_04But I think that depends on the community. You know, uh what it what does this community need to hear? Which is what Paul's doing, right? Like that these are these are all letters to specific communities, but not Superimposing. This is what everyone needs to be working on uh right now. But what what is what does this community need to to hear or be challenged by, convicted of in this time? And what may be different in another time?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it'd be interesting. I mean, if you could you know, if you watched a group of people for five minutes, um do you assign a grade to each of those people in that interaction? Or there's nothing you can do to make God love you anymore, and there's nothing you can do to make, you know, do we all get A's in this thing? Or do we strive to do better? You know? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That um, Sarah, when you were talking about recognizing that, you know, we're all sinful and that changes how we look at each other, I think is so valuable. Um in the last few months, I've had just a couple people talking about, it's like three people, and this is kind of a part of their personal journey, but talking about how the prayer of confession time just seems to be so heavy and it can make you feel so guilty. And um, and of course, you know, I'm like, oh, you know, hear that, and then as soon as I can, try to sort of explain why we do it. Um, because it really is about recognizing it's not just me that messes up, it is other people. Like we're all, we're not God, and we're gonna do not God things all the time. And God wants to be in relationship with us and wants us to be in relationship with each other. And having that reminder isn't intended to make us feel bad so much as it's intended to free us to let that go, you know? And um, Guy's not here today because he gets this great opportunity today to see a friend of his who just has a long layover at BNA, but he's always talking about the vertical and the horizontal relationship that is the cross. The vertical of the cross is relationship between me and God. And the horizontal is relationship between all of us, you know, and that it takes both to see the fullness of the cross.
SPEAKER_04Also, I feel like I'm hearing Will in my mind. I think Will would be like taking us to school too, about how this isn't just about the individual, right? Like that, or when it comes to sin, right? Like it don't just read yourself into the prayer of confession, right? It's not just all about you, right? Like the world is broken.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_04And if I can stop navel gazing about just me and my like I'm not the main actor, even in the prayer of confession, then how does that free us to name the brokenness and potentially even feel more empowered as a community to join into what God is doing?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I like that when we cause the response of, you know, um, hear the good news in Jesus or believe the good news in Jesus Christ, we are forgiven. And you're not saying, you're not like, Jesus Christ, I am forgiven. Phew. But like it is, it is a communal recognition that forgiveness is given to anyone who will receive it and to the world as it is in a br in its broken state. And the the healing power of God is always inviting us. But I like that even I've never really thought about that, but it's not in Jesus Christ, I am forgiven. Thanks be to God.
SPEAKER_04Let's move on.
SPEAKER_03Let's move on. It's we are forgiven. Yeah. And that has implications. So let's extend the peace of Christ and let's hear the word of God and let's give of our, you know, it's like liturgy has its own um rhythm. It's like people have thought about this for centuries and it's been put together intentionally. When did that stop? I think it was at least three or four years ago.
unknownAt least.
SPEAKER_00No, I love that. Well, and I mean, in some in different traditions, people emphasize confession differently, you know. Um, and Paul is always gonna be saying, God's grace is big, and that's why we need to see it. That's why we're in this together. And um the bigness, because of God's mercies. So, brothers and sisters, what does yours say? I have the C E B. Mine says, Because of God's mercies, I encourage you. This is verse 1, 12, 1. On the basis of God's mercy.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, on the basis of God's mercy.
SPEAKER_03Yep. What does yours say?
SPEAKER_04Same? Um, no, mine says uh by the mercies of God.
SPEAKER_00Basically. Mercy, mercy, mercy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well make that face. I mean, I I rem I read uh what is it, a brief history of mankind or something like that.
SPEAKER_02That book.
SPEAKER_01And and that book is so it's like everything we do, we can't see why we're screwing it up. It's like, you know, from the time humans started, they do this thing, and then because they did that, this tragedy happens, or this this is what harms you know, and it's like, okay. And so, you know, plastic's a great idea back in whatever 1950, you know. Right. And now it's killing us, right? Right. So um gosh. You know, keeping all that in mind as a corporate body in terms of, you know, I mean, to me, how do you not overthink this stuff? That's my problem. It's like, okay.
SPEAKER_03This will be a great sermon.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it should be. This is why I should preach some other text. But no. Um It's a good one.
SPEAKER_00It's a good one.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but I do like I do like not being conformed to this age and wondering how anyone does that when we are so tied to this age.
SPEAKER_04You also have to acknowledge like at the end of the day, like that is the entire point of our faith is that at the end of the day, we have to set name, like we can't. We we if we could, we wouldn't need Jesus. We can't not be conformed? Uh to some degree. Yeah, right. Like, and and I so I don't I don't know. You don't want to say that, and then all right, well, why bother? Or but there's so where is the the line of naming the like the real the relief in okay, but for the grace of God through Jesus Christ, you know, here I am. Also, it's good to work, right? You know, but always being able to come back to we are not the savers of ourselves or of the world. Um that for me is the rub.
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm. Well, something will happen on Sunday. I don't know what. But that'll be great. Something will happen. It's kickoff. What do we call it?
SPEAKER_04Children's kickoff. Children's kickoff. So we'll have lunch afterward. You'll be in the dunk tank.
SPEAKER_01Yes, do not be conformed. You transform by your baptism.
SPEAKER_00That's right.
SPEAKER_01All right. What else?
SPEAKER_00The world's going at you.
SPEAKER_01It's those happy little kids who don't follow the rules. They don't throw the ball, they just slap the pad.
SPEAKER_04That is 100% my fault. I started that last year or the year before, and I'd like to apologize. Is that allowed? It's a minutes. There was one little girl who was throwing it so many times, and finally I just went and picked her up and said, push that button. And I knew better than to know that, like, oh, no one else will want to do that. This precious little girl.
SPEAKER_00I mean, at the dunk tank, there's so much grace except for the person inside.
SPEAKER_01That's right. I'm taking names. All right, who's got a prayer? I'll pray. Okay, thank you. All right.
SPEAKER_00Lord God, we thank you again for this morning and this chance to look into your word and explore it together. Lord, it's what you call us to do in this life. Keep looking into your word. Keep looking to you. You have so much mercy that you have poured out into this world, and we know it in our lives. And when we begin to forget it, you are so willing to remind us and have guided us to remind one another. So, Lord, let us be people who live in your mercy and trust that you will show us what it means to be transformed in you and show us how to live in this world in a way that shows forth your mercy. Lord, I thank you for this congregation. I thank you for these colleagues, and that we can spend our time together growing to understand who you are with all the voices that have come before. And those of us who are here together at this point in time on purpose, because of the guiding of your spirit. Lord, this world belongs to you. Even though we look around and we feel like we can't see you, you are there. Help us to believe that in the depths of our spirits, and with mercy poured over us and ready to pour out from us, go into this world with a message that people need to hear, with a grace that people can see and feel in our presence and can begin to name it Jesus. In his name we pray. Amen. Thank you.
